Curse

Rubch One · Jun 03, 2005, 12:46 AM // 00:46

I realize that English may not be the native language for many of the posters on these forums, but the prevalence of not just poor, but downright atrocious, grammar and spelling on these boards is just dumbfounding. Granted, this isn’t the SATs and there isn’t a spell check, but sometimes I really have trouble understanding a post after reading and rereading it multiple times. Honestly, I feel like it’s making me stupider by reading it. I really hope that the grammar and spelling on these boards are not indicative of future grammar and spelling standards and that their pervasiveness ends in these forums – wishful thinking perhaps. This obviously has little impact on me, personally, but I am just a bit concerned. On second thought, though, I probably shouldn’t be. I just remembered the lengths to which people need to go to get into decent colleges these days, and it is no small feat. So I guess all is in balance. Any thoughts (flames)?

airbox · Jun 03, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06

In honor of just doing the total opposite of what you have just requested;

u f4ck1ng n00b g0 sux0r ur b0x0rz

I understand sometimes it is frustrating to read writings that could have been written by a second grader in special ed. class, but it is afterall, an online gaming community, you just have to adust to it. If you read a person's work that of a significant amount of time that the result of it is a self-stupidity sensation, then you my friend, need something else to do. If you don't understand it, simply ask for a rephrase or translation instead of murdering yourself worrying about some eight year old kid's grammars. In other words, who gives a shit?

-I would spend some of those hours playing online/posting with a good English textbook and an MLA handbook. It would make you so much more understandable. j00 n00b.

Serafita Kayin · Jun 03, 2005, 01:35 AM // 01:35

People like me, who deal with people whose first language isn't English every day.

They're taught PROPER English when they learn it, and idiom, slang, misspellings, bad grammar, and missing punctuation mean all the difference between understanding and confusion or, even worse, misguided assumption.

I still take the time if I have something worth saying to write proper sentences, punctuate, and spell. If I don't, people will look at my grammar and say that if I can't structure a sentence correctly, I must not have anything worth saying.

That's the law of the land in serious academics, the business world, and in most dealings with people who have even a modicum of learning. If you think that it's not that important, I would then reply that your statement must not be either. If you can't take the time to make it readable, I won't take the time to process it.

Dumb Quixote · Jun 03, 2005, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by airbox

In honor of just doing the total opposite of what you have just requested;

u f4ck1ng n00b g0 sux0r ur b0x0rz

I understand sometimes it is frustrating to read writings that could have been written by a second grader in special ed. class, but it is afterall, an online gaming community, you just have to adust to it. If you read a person's work that of a significant amount of time that the result of it is a self-stupidity sensation, then you my friend, need something else to do. If you don't understand it, simply ask for a rephrase or translation instead of murdering yourself worrying about some eight year old kid's grammars. In other words, who gives a shit?

-I would spend some of those hours playing online/posting with a good English textbook and an MLA handbook. It would make you so much more understandable. j00 n00b.

So what was edited here? I'm always curious.

By the way, this was a great response - even if edited down. The OP is by all definitions a Troll post.

airbox · Jun 03, 2005, 02:03 AM // 02:03

The last part, and I don't understand, is that message for me?

Dumb Quixote · Jun 03, 2005, 02:17 AM // 02:17

The Troll message was regarding original post. Your response I thought was great. I was curious about the edit because it said "Last edited by Serafita Kayin : Today at 06:37 PM.". So Mod edits are always curious to me....

deadvoice · Jun 03, 2005, 02:29 AM // 02:29

....the wise know that substance in language is found in intent. not in form or delivery.

the idea's that a person is trying to transmit are infinitly more important than the words and letters which they use in the transmission. we only have "exact spelling" and " standard sentance structure" for the sake of efficiency. to prevent languages from changing so much that they eventually mutate into new languages.

or we do it for the sake of those PROFOUNDLY literal minded people who have little to no ability to reasonably assume what a person is most likely trying to say based on what they see typed.

a friend of mine who i used to talk with online was korean. she had been speaking english for less than a year and a half when i first met her, and was living or had been living in communities where english was a secondary language at best which few people spoke in without a reason. she knew most of the base words, although she sometimes used words that were out of circulation. she was also poorly skilled in forming sentance structure in the right order, and in adding the right endings at the right time or context to the right words. especially when she was trying to type several sentances at once.

her friends and college professors were always telling her that they couldn't understand most if not all of what she wrote. yet despite her severe improficciency, i was still able to understand what she was "trying" to say 90% of the time.
if a persons ONLY language mistake is using "u", "teh", or is having the subject and the verb in misagreement or some such petty crap, than thats outstanding.
outstandingly easy to compensate for logically on the part of the reader.

please. if you see someone using bad/imperfect english, than "teach" them better by using it properly yourself while ignoring their misuse, unless specificly asked by them for help.
the first thing that people do when attacked intellectually is to stop seriously considering anything that the attacker says, making for the worst possible mode of learning.
it disgusts and annoys me intellectually when i see that a persons only response to a complex, sound argument is an attack on grammer.

plus, it ends up making you look like just another king jackass of unbending grammatical authoritarianism.

harse words, but some of you people really need to hear it.

ManadartheHealer · Jun 03, 2005, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadvoice

plus, it ends up making you look like just another king jackass of unbending grammatical authoritarianism.

Run! It's the grammar Nazis!

While I prefer that people use proper English, I understand that not everyone has superb grammar skills. And, in general, I can understand posts. If I don't, I ask for them to clarify (unless if it is an insignificant detail)...

I also understand that not everyone has english as a first language. And I find it amazing that they are initiated enough people to learn multiple languages, and that makes up for any little lack of coherence (ex. using "worser", or perhaps spelling something phoenetically, like "fone" instead of "phone").

BrandonIT · Jun 03, 2005, 05:07 AM // 05:07

What bothers me though is the English language continues to degrade even outside of online forums.

Coming from a college educated engineer who has been in the corporate world for 7 years, it continues to amaze me that many college graduates assume the way they communicate with their "buddies" online is how we communicate in business.

Believe me, learning proper English usage will prevent making yourself a complete fool in front of your boss, or worse, customers. Depending on Word to correct your grammar or spelling is akin to trusting a dog to pick your groceries. Yeah, what you'll get is edible, but it's just as likely to be poop as peaches. I've lost count of the number of times employees use contractions instead of possessives (like their and they're). Both may work when you read it aloud, but only one is correct.

What I'm trying to say is, practice makes perfect. If all your communications are jumbles of letters that you hope someone will understand, when it comes time to do it right, will you really know what 'right' is?

Personally, I blame society at large for just being lax in enforcing proper etiquette.

But, then again, that's just my opinion.

CatLady · Jun 03, 2005, 05:17 AM // 05:17

I personally found that a three year stint with instant-chant programs degraded my general desire to put a lot of effort into super-proper grammar or spelling during internet communication options designed largely for entertainment, such as forums. But that doesn't mean I'm incapable of returning to that mindset if I so wish.

While I stay away from that which may be impossible for those 'not in the know' to easily decipher, and try to maintain a moderate level of 'formality' to my structure, I do not bother using spell-check or a dictionary, and I do not care if I miss a capitalization or create multiple run-on sentences etc. As long as the meaning is clear, that's all I care about - either on my end or someone else's.

I think many, if not most, of the folks who do use 'sloppy' effort on the net are perfectly capable of writing in a cohesive manner. Not that I have any proof of this, beyond having net friends who can easily switch between l33t speak and lawyer-sounding essays...it's just my thought that the internet is an arena where often we're tasked with trying to convey thoughts in short bursts - like in games, or instant-chat - even, sometimes, on busy forums where replies may come very rapidly for some types of threads - and in those situations typing out paragraph+long messages may leave one out of the conversation because by the time one presses 'send' the conversation has already turned.

Thus, some people become used to rushing their typing, whatever their method, to try and hurry to get their input posted/out there - and it become habit, or just 'easier'. I don't see anything wrong with this, personally. Mediums such as forums can be used to have carefully thought out debates/conversations that are often not possible 'face to face', but they can also be used to have almost-but-not-quite stream of conciousness, rapid conversations by rapid typing and constant use of the 'send/reply' button.

I know many argue that the way you write reflects a person's personality/mentality/ability and therefore if you wish to be taken 'seriously' you should write 'properly' (or some variation on that theme). In terms of the over-all content of a person's writings, sometimes that's not an entirely inaccurate statement to make - it is, at least, an understandable assumption. And in terms of business or scholastic endeavours, where a certain formality has become, essentially, cultural/social law, of course it's important. Assuming those things are important to you.

However, grammar or spelling etc. for informal entertainment mediums where people come to relax...I think that's a different ballgame, one in which that argument has no serious validity and, in fact, amounts to little more than assumptive prejudice.

Just my long-winded and maybe incomprehensible 2 cents.

Dreamsmith · Jun 03, 2005, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadvoice

harse words, but some of you people really need to hear it.

Sorry, but if someone can't be bothered to try make something readable, then I can't be bothered to try to read it. Why should I put any effort into reading something when the author refused to put any effort into making it readable?

Some of my pet peeves including a lack of paragraph breaks, a lack of punctuation, and a lack of capitalization. All of these make it very difficult to determine where one sentence ends and another begins (indeed, visually, capitalization is a bigger cue than a period in helping the eye distinguish sentence breaks). Trying to read such a mess is usually not worth the effort involved.

But it goes beyond that. When someone types "ur" instead or "your", or can't be bothered to use a shift key in the appropriate places, they show a level of selfishness and disrespect beyond my ability to tolerate. In order to save themselves two keystrokes, they've inconvenienced everyone who has to try to later read what they've written. Hundreds, even thousands of people are inconvenienced so that they could avoid two keys. To me, that's beyond mere unthinking, careless selfishness. That's just plain rude. Two keystokes! It makes it abundantly clear just how little this person thinks of other people, how little respect they have for their readers.

Even if it is easy for a reader to compensate for "u" instead of "you" (which isn't always the case), you think it's appropriate to make hundreds of people do it a hundred times over, so that you have avoid having to type two keystrokes, once while writing it? Again, the sheer level of selfishness and lack of respect for others here is appalling.

I have no gripes against people who try their best and just aren't very good with the English language. It's the people who could take the little bit of extra time to type things up in an easy to read manner, but don't because they're too selfish to be bothered, those are the people that get my goat. It's the online equivalent of spitting in someone's face. And then they have the gall to act like there's something wrong with you for being upset about it.

I'm not a grammar Nazi, but I don't like people showing such profound levels of disrepect for others. Making mistakes because you're not perfect is fine. Deliberately making things more difficult to read so that it was slightly easier for you to type is inexcusable rudeness. Expecting others to extend you a little slack in reading what you've written when you won't do even simple things like capitalize sentences or use the two extra keystrokes to spell out "you" properly is incomprehensible to me. I cut slack for people who clearly are trying, but I don't for people who are being extremely rude and disrespectful to me as a reader. Such people don't deserve the slack.

Harsh words, but some of you people should expect it, given the general lack of manners you extend to others. If you're impolite to me, don't expect politeness in return. I don't expect perfection, I just expect some basic level of respect for me as a reader rather than being completely inconsiderate.

Principa Discordia · Jun 03, 2005, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Let's keep this thread clean, folks. Any more fighting and I will lock it down for good.

Dumb Quixote · Jun 03, 2005, 12:19 PM // 12:19

This thread by nature is a fight. "I'm better than you because....” If you exclude responses similar to the example given by airbox in his first post, you are inherently only allowing positions that are *for* better grammar (even if positions are taken to the contrary).

At the end of the day, words are meant to "express," not "impress". Concentrated efforts at sentence structure and thesaurus-based, thesis-style wordsmithing are just as difficult to read by the "general audience" as those of a more simple nature. Forum and chat discussions can be conversational for many users - so just pretend you are listening to it instead of reading it and slowly step away from the soapbox.

ArgentLupe · Jun 03, 2005, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Sorry, but if someone can't be bothered to try make something readable, then I can't be bothered to try to read it. Why should I put any effort into reading something when the author refused to put any effort into making it readable?

Well put. I feel very similar concerning both the typed and spoken word. It is one thing to mispell or mispronounce a few words, but to deliberately butcher the language seems unconscionable.

I feel that the amount of effort I am willing to exert understanding communication is directly proportional to the amount of effort put into creating it.

But that's just me. You are under no obligation to accept my position, but I hope that you were at least able to understand it.

Spirit Firefly · Jun 03, 2005, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubch One

I realize that English may not be the native language for many of the posters on these forums, but the prevalence of not just poor, but downright atrocious, grammar and spelling on these boards is just dumbfounding. Granted, this isn’t the SATs and there isn’t a spell check, but sometimes I really have trouble understanding a post after reading and rereading it multiple times. Honestly, I feel like it’s making me stupider by reading it. I really hope that the grammar and spelling on these boards are not indicative of future grammar and spelling standards and that their pervasiveness ends in these forums – wishful thinking perhaps. This obviously has little impact on me, personally, but I am just a bit concerned. On second thought, though, I probably shouldn’t be. I just remembered the lengths to which people need to go to get into decent colleges these days, and it is no small feat. So I guess all is in balance. Any thoughts (flames)?

Yes unless it was your attempt at humour it's spelt grammar....rereading is hyphenated..re-reading, and you seem to have a fetish for commas because under no circumstances do you get a comma both sides of 1 word unless listing in which case a semi-colon is more appropriate if you want to properly grammatical. Also English isn't your native language if you are ethnically American. America is the only country in the world where you can pass things by attending. You make a huge deal over the 1 test you have in your lives. In UK we get tested every year then move on to bigger harder tests. 11+, SATS, GCSE's, A-levels, Degrees etc. You can go on forever. So yes getting into college in America is quite a small feat just one not many people choose.

Lasher Dragon · Jun 03, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit Firefly

Yes unless it was your attempt at humour it's spelt grammar....rereading is hyphenated..re-reading, and you seem to have a fetish for commas because under no circumstances do you get a comma both sides of 1 word unless listing in which case a semi-colon is more appropriate if you want to properly grammatical. Also English isn't your native language if you are ethnically American. America is the only country in the world where you can pass things by attending. You make a huge deal over the 1 test you have in your lives. In UK we get tested every year then move on to bigger harder tests. 11+, SATS, GCSE's, A-levels, Degrees etc. You can go on forever. So yes getting into college in America is quite a small feat just one not many people choose.

Obviously you know a lot about the American educational system.

ManadartheHealer · Jun 03, 2005, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit Firefly

So yes getting into college in America is quite a small feat just one not many people choose.

I am going to have to disagree. Yes, we may only have one test, but tests are useless really... Out in the real world, it's not a matter of "A,B,C, or D", you have to make real decisions.

Getting into college is probably much harder than you think, but maybe easier than others think. If you want to go to a really good school, it can be hell to get in, while community colleges, etc., are easy to get into.

And I would have to say that, currently, a very small minority of people do not go to college. You shouldn't judge a whole educational system on just the least initiated and intelligent.

I personally cannot say how the educational system is in Britain, because I cannot judge something I have not experienced first hand.

Rubch One · Jun 03, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Allow me to clarify a few points.

1. I am not referring to people whose native language is not English
2. I may be a grammatical rain man and will notice poor punctuation and capitalization, but I’m really just referring to those posts that are basically indecipherable
3. I realize that forum posts are conversational in nature and not meant to be college-level theses. Again, I’m referring only to the most poorly constructed posts
4. In the academic or professional world (where most people will spend at least a fraction of their lives), grammar and spelling are extremely important (you will give a shit when you don't get a job because you misspelled something on your resume). It’s not a matter of expressing vs. impressing. Who is impressed with proper grammar and spelling? It should be a given because proper grammar and spelling enable better expression
5. To the point about language mutation, pay a quick visit to www.gizoogle.com
6. To the point about getting into college in the U.S. being quite a small feat, it’s not a matter of the quantity or difficulty of the required tests. Admittance to a top-20 university is an extremely competitive process, with perfect SAT scores and 4.8/4.0GPAs common place nowadays (BTW, reread is an actual word)
7. Finally, I can’t emphasize enough that I am not referring to Airbox’s eloquence. Specifically, the following post is what drove me to start this thread. http://forums.gwonline.net/showthrea...ight=Totenkopf

Pevil Lahuta's Pet Moa · Jun 03, 2005, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Comes from online chatting (AIM for example), where we use all of our little abbreviations in order to type quicker. I mean I'm not exactly tryin to write an essay here, just a little friendly chat. I think most ppl, or people if u (you) must, have no problem reading whats written.

ManadartheHealer · Jun 03, 2005, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubch One

5. To the point about language mutation, pay a quick visit to www.gizoogle.com

Ebonics is not a language mutation, it is simply not a language